I have on order a set of Nickel-Iron [Edison] batteries of roughly 850 amp/hr.
For the past couple decades, we've used an 1875 amp/hr set of C&D "forklift" batteries, which have been great but are now beginning to show some real age. They weigh in at 330 lb. per each of the six cells, so a major hassle to move by hand, which I must do since they are inside our house [cannot reasonably keep batteries outdoors here at 8500 ft. where it does get cold]. The NiFe cells weigh around 70 lb. each of 10 cells, so much nicer to move. Plus, I believe we can reasonably expect we'll never have to deal with changing batteries again, in our lifetimes.
So, if anyone sees this and has experience with the Edisons, I may come up with questions as I go along. As well, I shall hopefully be able to answer questions myself as I gain experience.
My current set-up means I'll be putting these new batteries into a system with around 2,000 watts of PV panels, three MX-60s, and an Outback VFX 2812 inverter. Our house has a dual, 12 v./120 v. set-up in which the 12 v. circuits power the 'fridge, freezer, swamp cooler in the greenhouse, all lighting, ceiling fans, and a Dankoff pressure pump for the domestic water system. The 120 v. circuit runs the well pump [Grunfos], computers and etc., TV and etc., air filtration units [3, BlueAir]. We have the usual KitchenAid, etc.
NiFe batteries
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NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:34 pm
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Re: NiFe batteries
by Eric » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:02 pm
It would be great to get your review of the NiFe. If I recall correctly, the drawbacks are lower efficiency, hard to find, and a different electrolyte. I don't think the lower efficiency is necessarily a problem if the durability is there. In other words you can cycle them a little bit deeper to compensate, without ill effects. And the solar would have to be sized a little bit bigger, theoretically, which you've done.
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Re: NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:39 am
The different electrolyte is no problem; they use potassium hydroxide plus a bit of lithium hydroxide, much less dangerous than acid. These chemicals are provided, in our case, by the manufacturer in powdered form, one must mix them with distilled water. The powder is included in the price.
The batteries are not as readily available. I decided, ultimately, to order the ChangHong version, which a co. here in Colorado deals and has sold and set up quite a few.
There is a co. in Montana building them, but their prices, since about October, have almost doubled. So...I felt I had no choice but to go with ChangHong, who at least do have a track record. I did not want to deal with China, but ultimately I found no alternative that would work for me. I did communicate with a couple of people who are and have been using ChangHong nickel iron batteries, and they both are pleased with them. Plus, the co. has several different "models" of nickel iron batteries, each designed for a particular use. One of these designs is specifically geared toward photovoltaic systems. [Whether this is hype, I shall have to ascertain once I have my batteries.]
Another consideration is physical size. Since the cells are 1.2 volts each, rather than 2.0 v for lead/acid, you need ten cells per 12 v. set rather than six. A bank will take up more space. However, my lead acid cells weigh 330 lb. each, and the new ones I'm getting weigh around 70 lb. Huge benefit for me.
The benefits are, for me, numerous, if these batteries turn out to work as I expect. They are not damaged if there's an unusual spell of cloudy weather, for example, and we are not able to charge them up fully. This does not happen often if one's array is properly sized, but it can happen to the best of us every few yr. or more often. There is very little maintenance and no acid mist or leakage to worry about. There are some of these that have lasted nearly a century and still work well. Meaning, one can buy a bank and perhaps use them all their life. You can add to the banks more batteries if you need to expand and it's fine, no problem mixing old and new cells. If one cell should go bad, you can simply remove it and stick a brand-new one in its place and be just fine.
And so on.
I thought of two potential problems with NiFe while I was contemplating them. They must be charged to a higher voltage than lead acid. Around 15.5 volts seems to be good, with the occasional 17 v. charge.
The first potential problem from this is that some of us have 12 v. appliances, etc., and some of those things are limited to a voltage high of less than 17 v. My Sunfrost 'fridge and SF freezer both have spec's saying upper voltage limit 15.5 volts. A call to Sunfrost tech. dep't said they can go much higher. So I think we are ok there. My other 12 v. stuff is lights and fans. I think they will be ok.
The second problem is with electronic equipment, particularly inverters. I just switched to an Outback 12 v. to 120 v. inverter and the spec's say they can handle 17 volt input. So, that should be ok. Our old inverter was limited to 15.6 volts, but I was kind of looking for an excuse to upgrade to a pure sine wave anyway, so I did.
I have not heard of anyone having problems with either DC appliances or inverters or anything else, using nickel iron batteries. I just realized I'd be dealing with a bit more voltage [while the batteries are at their upper voltage during charging cycle] and it occurred to me this might be a problem. But now I am thinking it may be no problem.
Time will tell whether our current PV array will adequately charge our new bank of NiFe batteries. It could be we have to add another panel or two. The dealer of the batteries feels we are right at the lower limit of what might work, so we'll see.
The batteries are on order, but I expect it to be two to three months before we get them, so actual experience and reports of such will have to wait.
Edit 3/27...I have been using Hydrocaps for many years on my lead-acid banks. I spoke with the co. last week and they told me their caps, same exact caps, work great with nickel-iron batteries. I add maybe a gallon a year of distilled water to my lead-acid bank [1875 amp. hr.] so these caps have been a benefit for me.
The batteries are not as readily available. I decided, ultimately, to order the ChangHong version, which a co. here in Colorado deals and has sold and set up quite a few.
There is a co. in Montana building them, but their prices, since about October, have almost doubled. So...I felt I had no choice but to go with ChangHong, who at least do have a track record. I did not want to deal with China, but ultimately I found no alternative that would work for me. I did communicate with a couple of people who are and have been using ChangHong nickel iron batteries, and they both are pleased with them. Plus, the co. has several different "models" of nickel iron batteries, each designed for a particular use. One of these designs is specifically geared toward photovoltaic systems. [Whether this is hype, I shall have to ascertain once I have my batteries.]
Another consideration is physical size. Since the cells are 1.2 volts each, rather than 2.0 v for lead/acid, you need ten cells per 12 v. set rather than six. A bank will take up more space. However, my lead acid cells weigh 330 lb. each, and the new ones I'm getting weigh around 70 lb. Huge benefit for me.
The benefits are, for me, numerous, if these batteries turn out to work as I expect. They are not damaged if there's an unusual spell of cloudy weather, for example, and we are not able to charge them up fully. This does not happen often if one's array is properly sized, but it can happen to the best of us every few yr. or more often. There is very little maintenance and no acid mist or leakage to worry about. There are some of these that have lasted nearly a century and still work well. Meaning, one can buy a bank and perhaps use them all their life. You can add to the banks more batteries if you need to expand and it's fine, no problem mixing old and new cells. If one cell should go bad, you can simply remove it and stick a brand-new one in its place and be just fine.
And so on.
I thought of two potential problems with NiFe while I was contemplating them. They must be charged to a higher voltage than lead acid. Around 15.5 volts seems to be good, with the occasional 17 v. charge.
The first potential problem from this is that some of us have 12 v. appliances, etc., and some of those things are limited to a voltage high of less than 17 v. My Sunfrost 'fridge and SF freezer both have spec's saying upper voltage limit 15.5 volts. A call to Sunfrost tech. dep't said they can go much higher. So I think we are ok there. My other 12 v. stuff is lights and fans. I think they will be ok.
The second problem is with electronic equipment, particularly inverters. I just switched to an Outback 12 v. to 120 v. inverter and the spec's say they can handle 17 volt input. So, that should be ok. Our old inverter was limited to 15.6 volts, but I was kind of looking for an excuse to upgrade to a pure sine wave anyway, so I did.
I have not heard of anyone having problems with either DC appliances or inverters or anything else, using nickel iron batteries. I just realized I'd be dealing with a bit more voltage [while the batteries are at their upper voltage during charging cycle] and it occurred to me this might be a problem. But now I am thinking it may be no problem.
Time will tell whether our current PV array will adequately charge our new bank of NiFe batteries. It could be we have to add another panel or two. The dealer of the batteries feels we are right at the lower limit of what might work, so we'll see.
The batteries are on order, but I expect it to be two to three months before we get them, so actual experience and reports of such will have to wait.
Edit 3/27...I have been using Hydrocaps for many years on my lead-acid banks. I spoke with the co. last week and they told me their caps, same exact caps, work great with nickel-iron batteries. I add maybe a gallon a year of distilled water to my lead-acid bank [1875 amp. hr.] so these caps have been a benefit for me.
Last edited by SteveH on Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:55 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:47 am
I rec'd an update on my NiFe order and it is now delayed until the end of May. I would not be surprised if it were delayed further. These batteries are being made in the ChangHong manufacturing plant somewhere in China. Apparently they rec'd an order for 39,000 batteries [I don't know if that means "cells" or "banks" but it does not matter, really]. This order came from the government-run train system. I would imagine that one does not tell the government that they must wait in line.
So, all other orders have been pushed back. Oh, well, one deals with a place such as China and this is what can happen. Luckily, my current lead-acid bank is still working adequately.
Once the batteries are done, they are transported by train from the factory to the coast, a very long trip, Shanghai if I remember correctly, then come across the Pacific via ship, go through customs [and whatever else security-wise these days] in California, then onto a truck for further travel. So it can take a long time.
So, all other orders have been pushed back. Oh, well, one deals with a place such as China and this is what can happen. Luckily, my current lead-acid bank is still working adequately.
Once the batteries are done, they are transported by train from the factory to the coast, a very long trip, Shanghai if I remember correctly, then come across the Pacific via ship, go through customs [and whatever else security-wise these days] in California, then onto a truck for further travel. So it can take a long time.
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Re: NiFe batteries
by Eric » Thu May 19, 2011 8:35 pm
Here is the Montana brand I presume-
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm
There are also some interesting specs at that website.
General info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm
There are also some interesting specs at that website.
General info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery
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Re: NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Fri May 27, 2011 7:40 am
Latest email from China, batteries are finished and being tested for a week, then will be sent to Shanghai for shipping to the US. Finally. I expect them by the end of June, or there about. I'll post more when I have them.
I am receiving requests from others who are quite interested in how these batteries work out in a PV-powered off-grid home. I will report here as we go along and later I'll go over the cost, as that is a major factor in deciding on a battery technology. I haven't run the numbers yet, but I can state that the batteries, while quite pricey, have not turned out to be as expensive as I'd feared. They are still several times higher in cost than lead acid, but one can use a lower-capacity bank with NiFe, as they can be discharged down as far as you like without damage. Apparently even to zero charge. Of course, some appliances will shut off at 10.5 volts, and lights will be rather dim, etc., at lower voltage. But, you won't be ruining your bank by discharging them so low if necessary. Whether being able to discharge so much is an advantage will depend on each home's situation.
Re: the previous post about Zapp in Montana. I spoke with them first, back in the early winter, when I became more interested in NiFe batteries as they are here in the US. I would greatly prefer to do business here at home, rather than overseas, so I contacted them first off. Yes, their web site is well-done and full of info'. As far as I know, they are a good company. Or, I haven't heard otherwise, and they were helpful and knowledgeable when I spoke with them on the phone. However, my choice of ChangHong had to do with finances. [Mine.] The price of the Zapp batteries I wanted went up from about $7000 to a bit over $13,000 in the two months or so I was making up my mind. That was a shocker and I just could not handle that increase. I was having difficulty getting my mind around the $7000, and while I mulled it over, the prices shot up.
I am receiving requests from others who are quite interested in how these batteries work out in a PV-powered off-grid home. I will report here as we go along and later I'll go over the cost, as that is a major factor in deciding on a battery technology. I haven't run the numbers yet, but I can state that the batteries, while quite pricey, have not turned out to be as expensive as I'd feared. They are still several times higher in cost than lead acid, but one can use a lower-capacity bank with NiFe, as they can be discharged down as far as you like without damage. Apparently even to zero charge. Of course, some appliances will shut off at 10.5 volts, and lights will be rather dim, etc., at lower voltage. But, you won't be ruining your bank by discharging them so low if necessary. Whether being able to discharge so much is an advantage will depend on each home's situation.
Re: the previous post about Zapp in Montana. I spoke with them first, back in the early winter, when I became more interested in NiFe batteries as they are here in the US. I would greatly prefer to do business here at home, rather than overseas, so I contacted them first off. Yes, their web site is well-done and full of info'. As far as I know, they are a good company. Or, I haven't heard otherwise, and they were helpful and knowledgeable when I spoke with them on the phone. However, my choice of ChangHong had to do with finances. [Mine.] The price of the Zapp batteries I wanted went up from about $7000 to a bit over $13,000 in the two months or so I was making up my mind. That was a shocker and I just could not handle that increase. I was having difficulty getting my mind around the $7000, and while I mulled it over, the prices shot up.
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Re: NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:40 pm
Ok, here on July 15 the Ni Fe batteries are finally on a truck headed to a nearby terminal for me to pick up, hopefully next Tues., 7/19. It has taken over six months, but they are finally about to arrive. Further updates as I have anything to update about them. I should probably begin a new post so that it doesn't require so much reading to get to the news about how they work out in a PV system.
Tues. 7/19...FedEx tells me the batteries are at the terminal to be picked up. Hurray. I drive two hours and they are not there. FedEx has, moreover, "lost" my shipment. No sign of it at any terminal/stop between here and the port where they went through customs. So I drive the 2 hr. back home and wait for FedEx to figure it out. So much for computerized, bar-code-followed and scanned shipments in the modern freight-hauling age. They even located the tractor-trailer rig the shipment left the port in, nothing..... The crate weighs 993 lb., so perhaps it simply fell off a desk and is hidden behind a chair or something.
Tues. 7/19...FedEx tells me the batteries are at the terminal to be picked up. Hurray. I drive two hours and they are not there. FedEx has, moreover, "lost" my shipment. No sign of it at any terminal/stop between here and the port where they went through customs. So I drive the 2 hr. back home and wait for FedEx to figure it out. So much for computerized, bar-code-followed and scanned shipments in the modern freight-hauling age. They even located the tractor-trailer rig the shipment left the port in, nothing..... The crate weighs 993 lb., so perhaps it simply fell off a desk and is hidden behind a chair or something.
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Re: NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:37 pm
My Ni Fe batteries are finally here after another delay by FedEx due to a problem with the haz-mat paperwork. [I think TSA or someone changed the procedures but I am not certain about that.] The haz-mat part is the powdered KOH they send with the batteries and which must be mixed with distilled water.
But I got them uncrated today and will be working on mixing the electrolyte and getting the things charged up. I shall begin a new post about all that once I have them installed and working. Meanwhile, they look good, from what I can see.
But I got them uncrated today and will be working on mixing the electrolyte and getting the things charged up. I shall begin a new post about all that once I have them installed and working. Meanwhile, they look good, from what I can see.
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Re: NiFe batteries
by powerfarmer » Sun May 06, 2012 1:22 pm
Hi Steve,
I just received my nickle-iron batteries from zappworks: zappstar 500 24 volt
I've been watching the 2 choices for nife jars for years now...the prices have steady gone up on both sides.
I went with the higher price for the following reasons:
1. refurbished edison nickle cores from 1907 and 1908 (about 95% pure nickle) VS nickle plated cores, according to factory should last 15 to 20 yr.s
2.electrolyte KOH properly maintained should last my lifetime. VS changing electrolyte every 5 to 7 yr.s?
3. Zappworks under rates thier amp capacity on purpose due to the battery industry has always been notorious at over-rating batteries from the start. I have 20 cells/jars that weigh about 100lb.s empty, (around 150 lbs. filled) each one is over 2 ft. tall, and they are 1.5 volts each. Actual amp hr storage should climb quite a bit once I start working them hard.
4. Any failure due to workmanship on cells NOT caused by user they will replace for the 1st 20 yrs. VS 2 yr warranty.
I've asked the folks to send me some info to post, due to alot of misinformation about them I've read on several solar forums.
Which I have not seen on this forum. I've noticed one new dealers websites of the china battery makes a slur about them being called new. I've inspected the insides thru and thru with a homemade fiber-optic snake. They have every right to call them new, everything in there is new except the nickle cores. It was fun to see a piece of history that's gonna power my family for generations.
I wish you the best with your batteries as I'm sure you do with mine.
When I get mine up and running I will start posting results here, so folks including myself, can learn more about both batteries. This isnt about oneupmanship, its about an opportunity to help future buyers, having a place to read about our results and comparisons, so they have better information before taking that big exspensive leap mostly in the dark, like you and I have had to do.
Sincerely,
Mark
I just received my nickle-iron batteries from zappworks: zappstar 500 24 volt
I've been watching the 2 choices for nife jars for years now...the prices have steady gone up on both sides.
I went with the higher price for the following reasons:
1. refurbished edison nickle cores from 1907 and 1908 (about 95% pure nickle) VS nickle plated cores, according to factory should last 15 to 20 yr.s
2.electrolyte KOH properly maintained should last my lifetime. VS changing electrolyte every 5 to 7 yr.s?
3. Zappworks under rates thier amp capacity on purpose due to the battery industry has always been notorious at over-rating batteries from the start. I have 20 cells/jars that weigh about 100lb.s empty, (around 150 lbs. filled) each one is over 2 ft. tall, and they are 1.5 volts each. Actual amp hr storage should climb quite a bit once I start working them hard.
4. Any failure due to workmanship on cells NOT caused by user they will replace for the 1st 20 yrs. VS 2 yr warranty.
I've asked the folks to send me some info to post, due to alot of misinformation about them I've read on several solar forums.
Which I have not seen on this forum. I've noticed one new dealers websites of the china battery makes a slur about them being called new. I've inspected the insides thru and thru with a homemade fiber-optic snake. They have every right to call them new, everything in there is new except the nickle cores. It was fun to see a piece of history that's gonna power my family for generations.
I wish you the best with your batteries as I'm sure you do with mine.
When I get mine up and running I will start posting results here, so folks including myself, can learn more about both batteries. This isnt about oneupmanship, its about an opportunity to help future buyers, having a place to read about our results and comparisons, so they have better information before taking that big exspensive leap mostly in the dark, like you and I have had to do.
Sincerely,
Mark
- powerfarmer
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Re: NiFe batteries
by SteveH » Tue May 08, 2012 1:41 pm
Glad to hear you've joined the nickel-iron users. The only reason I dropped Zapp from my search for batteries is that the first time I spoke with them, I was quoted a price of about $7000 plus shipping for the set I was interested in. When I called back in a couple months [which they suggested I do as they were moving the business or something like that and needed some time], the price for the same set of cells had gone to about $13,000, or perhaps a bit higher. I didn't have the money, and I was too taken aback at the price jump. I called ready to order and was too surprised and, as I said, I did not have that much money.
The ChangHongs are working well, here at about nine months or so into use. I have had no problems. It has, naturally, been a long learning process. There is plenty of info' out there to assist in using and maintaining lead acid batteries, not so much info' about these since not so many users are there to provide the experience. However, the dealer has been there for me and with that and the fact that this type of battery can withstand some learning by the owner.... It is nice that they are not damaged at all if left less than fully charged or even fully discharged. It has taken me a while to get the controllers [4] set for absorb and etc. But right now I am leaving everything alone and watching the system.
I have a 12-volt bank, so there are ten cells, each nominally 1.2 volts. I take them up to 1.65 volts each day, if I can, and let them absorb at that voltage for three hours, if the sun cooperates. So, that is 16.5 volts for the bank. This gives me very good capacity. I was told to expect this by the dealer when I was deciding what to order. These batteries replaced an 1875-amp-hr. set of forklift batteries and are running the home just fine, even being a smaller bank. Of course, I can take them lower than the lead acid batteries, if necessary, with no fear of harm or sulfation.
I ran a test over several months in which I lowered the bulk/absorb voltage downward from the 16.5 volts I mentioned above to 15.9 volts in 0.1 volt increments. I let each lower setting run for 2-3 weeks, depending on the charging I was able to do during the winter daylight hours. So, that was six different settings over several months. After that series of tests, I set the bulk/absorb back up to 16.5 volts. This is what was recommended to me by the manual I rec'd with the batteries. I was trying to find a setting that might decrease water use but still give me good capacity. I found that the recommended 16.5 volts was superior and am sticking with that now. I knew I could play around all I wanted and do no harm to the cells.
The cells do use a lot of distilled water, as I expected. I add maybe three gallons of distilled water every two months. I tried using Hydrocaps, as I had done with great results on my lead acid batteries, but they were unable to work with these batteries. The high voltage for bulk/absorb just was too much. The caps ran way too hot and I still had quite a lot of water usage, even with the recombinant caps installed. The heat told me they were recombining the H and O2, but there was just too much activity for the caps. I have removed them and reinstalled the factory-provided caps.
The ChangHongs are working well, here at about nine months or so into use. I have had no problems. It has, naturally, been a long learning process. There is plenty of info' out there to assist in using and maintaining lead acid batteries, not so much info' about these since not so many users are there to provide the experience. However, the dealer has been there for me and with that and the fact that this type of battery can withstand some learning by the owner.... It is nice that they are not damaged at all if left less than fully charged or even fully discharged. It has taken me a while to get the controllers [4] set for absorb and etc. But right now I am leaving everything alone and watching the system.
I have a 12-volt bank, so there are ten cells, each nominally 1.2 volts. I take them up to 1.65 volts each day, if I can, and let them absorb at that voltage for three hours, if the sun cooperates. So, that is 16.5 volts for the bank. This gives me very good capacity. I was told to expect this by the dealer when I was deciding what to order. These batteries replaced an 1875-amp-hr. set of forklift batteries and are running the home just fine, even being a smaller bank. Of course, I can take them lower than the lead acid batteries, if necessary, with no fear of harm or sulfation.
I ran a test over several months in which I lowered the bulk/absorb voltage downward from the 16.5 volts I mentioned above to 15.9 volts in 0.1 volt increments. I let each lower setting run for 2-3 weeks, depending on the charging I was able to do during the winter daylight hours. So, that was six different settings over several months. After that series of tests, I set the bulk/absorb back up to 16.5 volts. This is what was recommended to me by the manual I rec'd with the batteries. I was trying to find a setting that might decrease water use but still give me good capacity. I found that the recommended 16.5 volts was superior and am sticking with that now. I knew I could play around all I wanted and do no harm to the cells.
The cells do use a lot of distilled water, as I expected. I add maybe three gallons of distilled water every two months. I tried using Hydrocaps, as I had done with great results on my lead acid batteries, but they were unable to work with these batteries. The high voltage for bulk/absorb just was too much. The caps ran way too hot and I still had quite a lot of water usage, even with the recombinant caps installed. The heat told me they were recombining the H and O2, but there was just too much activity for the caps. I have removed them and reinstalled the factory-provided caps.
- SteveH
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- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:01 am
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